The internet is alive now with reports that DRob and Tommy Kahnle as well as rental Todd Frazier are on the way to (and back to) the Yanks for a package topped by Blake Rutherford and Ian Clarkin and including Tyler Clippard. This is a spectacular waste of Rutherford as none of the three players coming back are of the impact variety Blake projects to be. Kahnle has been good, but he's not a closer, and he and DRog will be working the 6th and 7th. That's worth Rutherford? WTF? Also, assuming they haven't given up anymore - they'll have to DFA 2 guys from their 40 to fit the 3 White Sox, and what the hell are they going to give up for a starting pitcher, which they were rumored to be after even before Pineda went down?
Update: The Deal is Done. They just overpayed for relievers and a rental. They gave up Rutherford, Clarkin, Tito Polo and Clippard for DRob, Kahnle and Todd Frazier. None of the players coming back is worth Rutherford, so all three are not worth Rutherford plus two guys and a money favor. I have nothing against the two returnees or Frazier, but I would only have moved Rutherford for a young ace or in a package for a young superstar. The Yanks didn't do that. Now how will they overpay for a starter? That's the really frightening thing.
26 Comments:
Just when I was willing to give Cashman a reset.
1 more player from the Yankees. Hope it's Headley
I think Florial passed Rutherford for the time being, and I think that will be the baseball excuse for moving Rutherford. But we were not as OF rich as we are rumored to be. We have Florial, maybe Amburget, maybe Sensely, Zehner is 25, Cave is too, I think. Etc.
They view themselves as desperate. They have no reason to be.
Chapman and Betances look a little better lately. Can we stop the madness of this idiocy,
Every single of them are morons.
And they further empowered of the worst managers in MLB.
A few thoughts:
•Not crazy about this trade, as I think they should have gotten more for Rutherford than two relievers and a corner infielder hitting .200. I do wonder if Rutherford's lack of power this year was a red flag of some kind.
•I've no doubt they like Florial better of the two. In fact, I think they view Florial as their future No. 1 prospect.
•This team is going to offer Bryce Harper $500 million.
•If they want to get under the luxury tax in '18, they need to ship off both Headley and Gardner this offseason. Wouldn't mind them selling high on Castro, too.
•I would seriously move Chapman to middle relief until he starts missing bats again.
Rutherford is what 19? His power will come. No reason to sell low.
20. He was apparently old for his draft class.
He's a May Birthday, who thus turned 19 before he was drafted. The really problem is that he should have been untradable but they blew him on this meager package So what will they deal for a starting pitcher? That market will now want Florial, etc.
I'm not as up in arms about this as some of you seem to be. While Rutherford is a tough pill to swallow, he has taken a step back this year. He's not hitting for much, if any power and recent reports have indicated that he's just not making hard contact. Regardless, Clarkin & Polo both would have been required to be on the 40 at seasons end, so I can live with that.
The prize is Kahnle, he has the 2nd highest K% behind Kimbrel and ahead of Betances. He's also under control for another 3+ years at next to nothing. The Yanks would be in 1st this year if their bullpen didn't blow 18 games already.
Also, do you guys just make these trade ideas up in your head and think they were even possibilities? Rutherford would never be a headliner in a package for Sale, that deal starts with Torres + Rutherford and then some. Would I have rather gotten a SP in return for a package centered around Rutherford? Sure, but what SP is that going to fetch? It wasn't good enough for Quintana, I highly doubt it nets Sonny Gray and eve if it did, is he better than this package?
All in all, this helps 2017, 2018 and 2019 and I mentioned in another thread but this could lead to a major Betances trade over the offseason.
The point is that if Sale is the target, and I think they should be a year away from that type of move, then it's worth giving top prospects. It's also premature to trade Rutherford because he will likely be worth significantly more in a year or two.
How many people thought Judge would be this good this season? But he always had talent. And if you bank on talent good things are likely to happen
Rutherford has high end talent.
I don't believe in giving up players with his upside for relievers.
Then it comes down to why do they need relievers.
It was obvious to everyone that Chapman was overused in the playoffs and that there could be a residual effect. They signed him anyway.
Then, this terrible manager insisted on sticking with Clippard, letting him blow save after save, as if he was owed Jeter-like deference.
That started this slump.
Meanwhile, Betances was saved for save situations that never came and that caused him to lose effectiveness.
Part of the reason, beyond injuries, that the losing snowballed is that too many guys don't walk. So it's a hit or a zero.
Finally, what are they holding on to Gardner for?
They are admittedly in a transition year. This trade doesn't fit with that.
I think this is a terrible trade, don't care who they view as a better prospect, neither should have been added to the package for the players we got back. We will rue this day 5 years from now when BR is a #3 hitter in a potent lineup in MLB, that lineup not being the Yankees. The Sox have been on BR for awhile, they wanted him badly.
I hope this wasn't the classic former Yankee type deal of keeping a player from going to a rival (Frazier-Red Sox)
5. Clippard counters about half of what the Yankees owe Robertson the rest of this season. But the righty will count $11.5 million toward the luxury-tax threshold next year when the Yankees are determined to get under the $197 million threshold. Thus, their likelihood of signing a big starter this offseason would dim, particularly if Masahiro Tanaka does not opt out of his contract. But this trade gives them Robertson, Kahnle, Chapman, Betances and Warren through next year at least to help alleviate some stress on starters.
(Sherman)
So if Otani came free they would demur?
I think Rutherford has lost a lot of luster this year - fell off 2 mid-season top 50 prospect lists for a reason..
I don't think we are 1 trade away from being WS contenders but all metrics point to the Yanks being one of the elite teams this season with the lone caveat being 18 blown saves and the worst record in 1 games decided by 1 run.
Coming into this season, the Yanks definitely didn't envision making this move but timelines change as players develop and I think this is just as much for next year as it is for this one.
Look, I love prospects just as much as you all and this trade definitely could have some downside but look at Kahnle. Dude is under control for next 3 years and is the 3rd best reliever in baseball this year behind Jensen and Kimbrel, even better than Miller.
Yanks made it a 5 inning game to offset the SP issue. This strength will carry over into next season as well.
Changing the manager should have been tried first.
Just saw SG's comment at replacement level. Similar to many of ours. Trade Rutherford for a starter not a reliever.
"Thus, their likelihood of signing a big starter this offseason would dim..."
This could easily be mitigated if they trade Gardner and Headley this offseason. (Castro too.) Otani wouldn't cost much since he'd be subject to the under-25 international cap. The question with him is, does his reported friendship with Darvish make whoever has Darvish on their team the favorite? I think they should sign Darvish regardless, personally, assuming it's to a reasonable deal.
Rich, I hear what you're saying on Rutherford, and I agree that the philosophy behind the trade feels like they're trying to dance to two different tunes simultaneously. That said, there's also the chance he doesn't hit for power next year, which would further reduce his value. There's a risk either way, so while I don't feel great about this deal, I at least somewhat understand it from that perspective.
Mike, ok possible, but then ad we've said, trade him for a starter.
There will very likely never be a better time to trade Gardner than now.
This trade lengthens the bullpen considerably, so it may be an admission by Cashman that the cost for a starting pitcher was too prohibitive for his liking. As Billy suggested, any discussions likely begin with the team's best AAA assets.
If I were them, I would trade Gardner at the deadline, then Headley, Castro and Betances in the offseason. Losing Betances would suck, but they could probably get the best value for him of all those I mentioned.
Refsnyder DFA. I am sure he will hookup with another club.
Sure, but you are always going improve your team in the present if you willing to sacrifice the future. But are you selling low (given Rutherford and Clarkin's age/state of development) and are you limiting your future? I think the answer is clearly yes to both.
Also, just because a trade for a starter isn't well-priced today, it doesn't mean the price in the future will be the same.
So the issue on both sides of the equation is value. I think they lost the trade on that metric.
by the way, AA or below assets are often the most valuable. Torres and Sheffield weren't at AAA.
All this trade is going to do is enable Girardi to over-manage even more.
The Sawx ate $50m Sandoval dollars.
The big bad NYY can't munch Ellsbury's $70m?
I would argue they are selling high, not low on both Rutherford and Clarkin.
I mentioned this earlier but Gray is going to cost top end prospects and I don't believe he's worth it. Besides him, there really isn't an available starter now that Quintana is gone that makes any sense. Sure, trading Rutherford for a SP would have been ideal but who is that going to obtain?
Most of Cashman's trades are met with disdain on this forum but I give him the benefit of the doubt. And assets below AA, especially High A, are never the most valuable - they are lottery tickets with the lowest probability rate. A guy like Torres / Sheffield were excelling in High A at the time of their trades, these were not lottery tickets that we lucked into due to development.
In my opinion, viewing this in light most favorable to Cashman, he was ordered to improve the team, and since the Sawx wanted the same players, Levine (the hole) and Hal weren't going to be outbid.
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