Yanks: Already Seeing the Fruitlessness
Sucky vets aren't my only complaint. Let me add one more point about that: when Hicks comes back, if he does, they cannot let Ellsbury's contract decide who stays and who plays. He's not better than either of them. He's not better than Jake Cave. He's basically replacement level, and he doesn't steal bases anymore. Gardy's not much better. And neither of them can be allowed to block Frazier and Hicks.
Finally, down 6-1 in the bottom of the 8th, Girardi decided to waste an inning of Tommy Kahnle's. I'm sure he was excited to get a look that the new shiny, but he still hasn't learned to apply his relievers to appropriately leveraged situations. This was like a spring training looksee and I'm quite sure not what the Yanks just re-acquired Tommy to do. Now he won't be available Friday, and that game is not already decided like today's was,
And it was ownership signalling use of a messed up Tyler Clippard for over a month that probably lead to last night's overpay.
Just pathetic, and I hope they are not thinking of sacrificing anything more for this year.
posted by Kalel9 @ 3:36 PM
43 Comments:
Painfully true, all the more so because there is a light at the end of the tunnel that is starting to brighten. I get that Hal's worst instincts may be exploited by team president turd, but that doesn't explain Cashman's affinity for Didi and Castro.
There is almost certainly another trade coming. I hope it isn't too f'ing expensive longer term.
Honestly, couldn't disagree more with both of you. The days of grinding to get the bullpen are outdated. Most teams prefer to face the SP now a days then the RP coming out throwing 95+.
We still have players who see pitches but it's a different game now and there's a difference between working a count and swinging at good pitches. Didi and Starlin aren't the problem and we're overreacting to 1 game after a trade.
Last nights trade wasn't an overpay, Kahnle has better numbers than Miller and will be here for next 3 years. I like prospects as much as anyone but trading a guy who is at the peak of his value who's not even your 3rd best OF prospect for that package is a no brainer.
Rich can moan that SP is what the real need is but there is no SP out there that is available that really moves the needle. Yanks lead league with 18 blown games by the bullpen and are top 5 in advanced metrics. We didn't mortgage any future and saying "we coulda get x, y or z for Rutherford" is pure speculation and fantasy because a. You don't know how teams value Rutherford and b. You don't know if player x, y or z is even available.
Hicks also seems to be a bit further away then we'd like but I agree that it will be extremely disappointing if he comes back and we demote Frazier and not DFA ellsbury
Moan such a loaded word.
We disagree, so what?
And by the way, what is not speculation is the ability to stand pat.
Or even better, sell.
Grinding isn't just a strategy to burn through a starting pitcher, it works against bullpens, too, and more importantly creates walks, invites pitches you can crush and saves outs.
btw, not including Frazier because he is up, Rutherford was our first or second best OF prospect with Florial either being one or two.
I would go Frazier, Fowler and Florial before Rutherford ..Indians made it to WS last year with only a lights out pen and timely hitting. If Kahnle pitches like he has all year for the remainder of his deal then this is a home run.
Timely hitting isn't predictable or foreseeable. It's largely about luck, and i and the chances of having good luck are related to taking pitches and working the count. Not enough of their players do that.
And with regard to what I said trading for starting pitcher, it wasn't that anyone could know what was available at any given time, it's merely about what I view as the necessary value ton move a top 50 Prospect.
No one knows it if Rutherford or Floriial will ultimately turn out to be the better player. Keeping both preserve optionaliy. At this stage of the Yankees rebuilding process that was my priority.
IF Rutherford becomes a perennial All-Star, nothing makes this deal a HR.
Some speech to text fail. Sorry.
As of this moment we have spent 4 picks, including two first rounders, on DRob and Kahnle. If anything, this is an indictment of our foresight, not the cleverness of the same guys going after two guys they let go of. In truth, a perfectly run Yankee team would still have all 4 of them.
I can see Betances being moved for a SP. Just hope it is to a NL team so we don't face him as much.
I don't care where they trade him to as long as the player is young and has significant upside. That could be much easier to stomach than trading Rutherford for what they traded him for.
The only thing about trading Betances is that you have to be certain that Chapman is 100%, or as close to that as possible for any pitcher, medically. If not yet another top prospect will be traded for another reliever
Once a player is drafted, the round in which they were taken is obsolete. Looking at a trade in that prism is going to distort the reality of what was actually teaded.
Rutherford is a good prospect, in low A at age 20 and hitting for no power. He will be a corner OF and for him to have any value, he needs to hit and hit for power, both of which he hasn't done either of this year.
Clarkin was a good pick at the time, projectable lefty with an out-pitch curveball. Injuries have derailed him for the better part of his career, whether it's an elbow or a torn knee from fielding a bunt, he has rarely been healthy. When he has, he has shown average stuff and a reverse platoon split, which indicates he no longer has an out-pitch breaking ball.
When you factor in that Clarkin is rule 5 eligible and required a 40 man spot, this trade boils down to Rutherford for 3 players. I don't view this as a "go for it now" deal, this essentially solidifies huge holes for 2017 but also fortifies an area of the club for 2018 & 2019. Trading 1 legitimate prospect, who is either having a down year or isn't as good as we thought for this package is a no brainer. Especially since there is zero market for a SP outside of overpaying for injury prone Sonny Gray, this is a deal that didn't have to be made but ultimately the opportunity cost makes sense in the big picture.
I thought Clarkin would be traded. He's pitching well, but guys were passig him, and there was that 40 thing, I didn't think there was a trade worth Rutherford out there. The Joe is tough on lefties, and Fowler, Cave and McKinney also weren't hitting for much power at 20.
There are enough arms in the system to where, if they do finally lock down the rotation, they can promote from within to fill any role needed. It's doubtful they're going to give Betances a long-term deal, so I've no problem with them trading him at the right opportunity.
On the subject of grinding, it's been my belief for a while the most important offensive skill is not making outs. If a player is getting on base, they're doing their job, so I will always prefer a player who has that skill. This is why Aaron Hicks has turned me into a believer — he has 37 walks on the year, which makes him a team leader even though he's been on the DL. Hicks is probably the analytics department's best find since Nick Swisher.
When it comes to Didi and Castro, let me say up from I like what both have brought to the team this year, Didi especially when you factor in the defense and general likability. Despite this, I'm wary of considering either a long-term fixture in the middle infield. As has been pointed out, neither walks much. In Didi's case, he'll be 30 when he hits free agency, so do you really want to lock him in long-term when there are good shortstop prospects in the minors and that plus defense will begin to decline? In Castro's case, this is only the second time in the last five seasons his OPS+ has been greater than 100, so is this an outlier, or is he finally settling in at age 27? I'm not sure you can conclusively say it's either one, which is why I would be in favor of selling high, especially if Tetsuto Yamada gets posted this offseason.
While I would say I am, for lack of a better word, bullish on Hicks at this point, I like Frazier better. And he's my priority if I had to choose between the two because they refuse to move Gardner or buy-out Ellsbury.
Rutherford is slugging .391 for the season @ 20, Fowler slugged .460 @ 19 in Charleston. Regardless, 2 different publications moved Rutherford off their top 50 at midseason for a reason, so it's clear there is some consensus he has taken a step back this year. This is why I was indicating to Rich in a prior thread that it's possible the Yanks are selling high on him to a team that still values the Rutherford of last year. Only time will tell if he is the 2017 version or the 2016 version but the opportunity cost makes this deal a no brainer.
Starlin & Didi are what they are at this point but they can still be of value. This isn't saying I wouldn't trade either one, they definitely are expandable and should be moved if the return is right. But they are entering their prime years and signed at reasonable costs, so they should hold value especially since they play up the middle positions and provide above league average offense.
I don't deny that it's possible. I think given his age and his skill set his problems are likely transitory, but if I was going to trade him because I believed I was trading high, I wouldn't trade him for what they traded him for.
One more thing about Hicks. I think the very low number of African-Americans in major league baseball is a problem but I know they are trying to address. So if you have a talented player like Hicks, I would like to keep him and see him flourish.
Rich, who would you have traded him for?
Cost controlled elite RP or back end SP? Rutherford wasn't getting Quintana or Gray without adding other top prospects, which we definitely shouldn't be doing...
My preference would be a cost-controlled starting pitcher. And if that wasn't available, as it seems likely since they tried to trade him in a package for Quintana according to Sherman, I would just hold on to him because that was my preference anyway.
Cashman told Bowden that he isn't trading Betances, which given theirs affinity for a Girardi-proof pen doesn't surprise me.
The Mariners supposedly gave up a ton for Phelps. I actually like that trade for Eovaldi, but I was wrong; they got burnt.
Not sure they got burnt, Eovaldi was developing into a mid-rotation starter before he blew out his elbow, which is unpredictable.
If you hold onto Rutherford and he continues his downward trend, we would never obtain a talent like Kahnle for him - it made sense to move him if they believed he wasn't the prospect they thought. There is no cost-controlled starter that's available that wouldn't cost us multiple top prospects, so I think this is a good move for both the immediate and future of this club.
I think Gray is going to cost a team at least 2+ top tier prospects and that's not something we should entertain.
I'm talking about the end result. It's not a criticism, it's just the way things turned out.
Of course, there's a risk in everything.
Wait. You trade a top prospect to increase your chances of winning this year yet you do this? This is so fucked up https://twitter.com/maxwildstein/status/888120799109947394
GM Brian Cashman said Clint Frazier will be heading back down to the minors once Aaron Hicks is activated. #Yankees
No other outlet is reporting that, and at least one response to that tweet I read (might have be a response to RAB/Axisa quoting that tweet) says he was misquoted.
Still, outside of trading Gardner, I don't think they have much choice.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/cashman-clint-frazier-odd-man-hicks-returns-article-1.3342984?utm_content=buffer7c13e&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=NYDNSports+Twitter
The Siz just gave a massive check to Sandoval. The Yankees have deeper pockets.
You do what you have to do. They just sacrificed last year's number one pick, their highest pick since Jeter, to to increase their chances winning now, and Frazier gives them the best chance of winning now if he continues to hit like he has.
Sox
Just saw that link on Twitter. Hopefully, when September call ups happen, he plays regularly.
If Mateo or Acevedo go for Gray (or Torres/Frazier for that matter) I'm gonna be a lot more pissed at that trade than I was at the Rutherford trade.
This is all about refusing to admit that you made a colossal mistake, right? To the point were you are willing to sacrifice your chance of winning because you think that Ellsbury is going to magically return to his 2011 form, when in reality has been significantly below average below average for three seasons.
I guess how the ninja businessman missed the course on sunk costs.
I don't know what you're referring to but that would be is if George is reincarnated.
Oh I see what you're saying now. Look, they are trading some more top prospects. In a year when Tanaka sucks, the offense is inconsistent, and one more year of sticking with all their prospects would likely have set them up for 5 to 10 years, this is a very uninspiring strategy.
This is nuts
Even w/T Frazier acquisition, source says Yankees remain open to 1B trade. Happy to go with Headley/Cooper, but not shutting door on others. -- @Feinsand
via http://cbssportsapp.com
It's going to suck so much when Mateo and Acevedo are traded for Gray and he's giving up bombs in Yankee Stadium.
Seriously, if they're gonna trade top-10 guys for a starter, go after Darvish.
Again, if they were playing well and they were really close it would be one thing. They have sucked. I really thought they were a very well run team. My confidence is a little shaken and if all that stuff happens severely shaken.
I'll get over it eventually, because Part 2 of that story is no player given up for Gray amounting to anything just like the Pineda deal. I just hope Gray is better than Pineda.
T Frazier and Castro swung at the first pitch. Jeez.
Great job by Sevy. But the o is not strong enough to not have Clint Frazier in the lineup.
Love to have Darvish but he is a FA so unless the Yankees have a window to extend him then go for it depending on cost.
He will cost plenty.
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