The Yanks today began what must be a carefully measured sell off by trading Aroldis Chapman for 19 year old SS Gleyber Torres, 21 year old OF Billy McKinney, RHP Adam Warren, and another player whose name has not yet been released. Torres is shorter, but has some mechanical similarities to Jeter at the plate. Torres is in A, and has started hitting homers this year. McKinney, is a former A's first rounder and a lefty bat. He hasn't hit for power yet, and he's in AA. Yankee stadium may eventually help him, if he can make it. Both Torres and McKinney seem to have the walk gene. And Adam Warren comes home. This seems like a pretty nice take, even without knowing who the 4th players is. I guess we'll update as more info comes in.
UPDATE: The 4th player is Rashad Crawford and 6'3" 22 year old CF who is in High A. He's a lefty hitter who hasn't show power or much of the walk gene yet. I don't think he's a top 20 prospect for the Yanks. Not sure McKinney is either, but Torres is probably a top 10 or maybe top 5.
107 Comments:
Curry says there is mutual interest in Chapman returning as a free agent.
Patrick Mooney:
Sources: #Cubs finalizing deal to acquire Aroldis Chapman from #Yankees for Gleyber Torres, Adam Warren, Billy McKinney and Rashad Crawford.
(Repost from previous thread.)
This comment has been removed by the author.
Michael, I hear this trade was contingent on Chapman extending. They will not get this kind of return for a 3 month rental. I heard 4 yr $60 M extension.
A good deal as long as they don't trade the pieces and more of their own for pitching.
I agree lawyer, not opposed to chapman returning either in the winter. Trading for Sale seems counterproductive.
Lion supposedly Chapman doesn't want to sign (maybe he did by now) and possibly come back in the winter.
Trade is DONE!! Woohoo!, Great haul!
http://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/yankees-reportedly-trade-aroldis-chapman-to-cubs-for-four-players/
Big uptick from what we gave up for Chapman!
No extension w Cubs
The problem with trading for Sale is the horrible collection of starting position players. Apart from Didi (and Beltran's ability which is negated longer term by his age), there isn't one starter on this team who should be a starter.
This trade also shows how badly Theo wanted to rid of himself of Castro, who has shown that he is a terrible tease.
Per Sherman Yanks wanted to extend Chapman now wasn't interested at this time, was traded.
@Joelsherman1: #Yankees were led to believe that Chapman would rather test free agency, and that NYY would have chance to re-sign then.
As I said on the other thread in another way, Chapman is just a jaw dropping talent. The issue is what kind of guy is he off the field. I'm not sure we know. We just know there is a decent sized red flag.
This sums up the media's view of prospect in a nutshell:
Jon Heyman Jersey City, NJ
can't blame cubs. they havent won in 108 years. silly to fret over a teen-aged shortstop when it's time break the jinx.
Also, Chapman is going to want record-breaking money.
Heyman Jersey City, NJ
yankees tried to talk extension with chapman, and when he declined to do so, it helped sway yanks to trade him
This also jacks the price for Miller.
You can even argue that Miller is now worth more even though he isn't as good.
Miller is 100% worth more -- he's signed for 2 more years at 9mil per. Hard to say he's not as good considering his #'s are better than Chapman.
Miller isn't going anywhere unless Hal and Levine do an about face and start putting the franchise's long-term future ahead of short-term profitability. I won't hold my breath.
Now, after this trade, I would really like to keep Miller. However, if he is traded, Rangers gotta talk Gallo or Profar. Nats gotta talk Gollita. (I know I'm spelling all the names wrong, but you guys know who I mean.
These are the types that need to come back.
Chapman has had fWAR as high as 3.3 and 2.8; Miller's high is 2.2.
Apart from Mo's 4.3 in 1996 when he frequently pitched multiple innings (107.2 overall), his highest was 3.2 in 2001 and 2008.
There is a level of dominance to Chapman that is unique, imo.
This looks like a great deal for a rental. The Torres-Mateo competition will be interesting. Does this suggest that the Yanks aren't very confident that any of the OFA shortstops they signed can stick at shortstop?
You stockpile talent, this does not indicate anything about any prospect in their minor league levels ability.
You do not trade for positional need when it comes to prospects.
Agree 100% with Mike K with LTF/STP.
Also, you never know how prospects will shake out, that's why I think this is also a Good trade for Cubs. They have a guaranteed dominant MLB closer for some future potential.
They are going for it, same when we traded for Wettland/Cone Etc.. You have to give yourself the best chance to win when you can. Look at the Nationals who had great prospects and top farm system and sat mostly for them to win it all..now they are pushing hard, as rthey realize players like Harper could leave soon.
Great trade by Cashman. Now with Warren back I am sure a combination of Nova, Pineda and Eovaldi will get traded
Torres and Mateo can play mutiple positions. I don't care what some people say, you win with offense because pitching is too fragile to count on. So if this is a shift toward that recognition, great, if not then I think that would be a wasted opportunity.
NYDN reporting Torres will shift to 2B.
Severino to the pen. No indication of this is just until Warren arrives or if they're planning to keep him there the rest of the season.
Upside is, it could aid in him finding his command. Downside is it stunts the development of three pitches he needs as a starter.
(I'm also not convinced he doesn't end up in the pen eventually anyway.)
Well sure, virtually every starter they develop becomes a reliever. It is happening so frequently that something is seriously wrong.
What's "wrong" is their seeming inability to develop guys with three pitches. I asked RailRaiders beat writer Donnie Collins about it on Twitter a few days ago, and he agreed it seems to be a recurring issue:
@mkerekes714 I would agree. It's why I always liked nova. At least he showed flashes with a slider and change at times.
So that has to implicate everything from scouting to development. Fircexample, look at the Tampa Bay Rays. They scout guys with a change or who seem to have the ability to learn one. Add that to a fastball and curve/slider...boom.
I don't know how the GM doesn't deserve a large portion of responsibility for that lack of integration, but not here.
Every moron is now pushing a Sale trade.
Cashman failures in a nutshell
We have pitching prospects on the way. We developed Kennedy and Hughes who both have multi-million dollar contracts. CMW got hurt playing Budball, and Joba was indeed ruined by Cash and Torre and whoever was involved. Also, the Yanks have drafted some good pitchers who didn't sign, one was not their fault, others were the faults of ownership. Also, they've changed minor league pitching Czars twice in the last two years, from Nardi to Patterson and now to Aldred and Borrel. Patience is needed. Chance Adams says hi.
Report now that we are pushing a Nova trade...
I disagree on Joba, Phil: He was ruined by that freak injury that zapped him of five ticks off his fastball ruined him. I've heard so many stories on what happened with Gerritt Cole that I don't know what to believe. Adams looks promising. I hope Mitchell can return to form, too.
Yeah I agree the pieces are there, but the people at the top, and I include everyone at the top, are lacking something. Certainly patience, and an ability to see a plan through, making some course corrections when necessary.
So if the Sale thing as any reality to it, we just have to hope that the White Sox can kill it.
Those are the types of movies you make when you have a very deep and fairly young major-league team, and the minor-leaguers behind them have no place to be promoted. The Yankees are in the opposite situation
I don't think the Sale thing is real.
I'm not a Cashman defender per se, but it's become increasingly obvious over the last week the real problem is Hal and Levine, who too often don't let their baseball people make baseball decisions.
The alternative view is that Cashman's baseball moves have put them in a position where they can't compete at a high-level So selling then becomes the best option.
And, they did allow the Chapman trade, and they may still allow several more moves.
Cash: "This isn't white flag." Said getting Warren was important to Hal S and can help #Yankees contend now. Key was "maximizing" Chapman.
And there it is. Hal is a part of the problem and not the solution, sadly.
I think Severino is in the bullpen for now but think he'll eventually replace a Starter(Nova,Eovaldi,Pineda) that will be moved, once Warren gets here he replaces Chapman in the BP but moved as a setup guy, Miller and Betances share closer duties.
Too bad Hal didn't allow Warren to hold up the Castro deal.
As far as the white flag, I don't care what they say, the are making more trades.
Phil/lawyer as a baseball move do you like this as for the return we got? I agree with Phil, Sale is media propaganda.
Yes, Michael.
___
As for Hal, if you think that getting Warren is important in a deal of this magnitude, you are an idiot.
Of course, we live in a time when if your father was rich too many people are willing to believe that you are smart, even in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.
At least in Hal's case, he isn't dangerous.
I've told you guys, Hal is a big, big problem.
Can he sell the team already?
My question is, is Hal a problem all on his own, or is he a problem because he listens too much to Randy Levine?
That's unclear. Billy might have some insight.
Mike K - My bet is it's Randy Levine.
To be fair to Cash man (and I am not by any means giving him a blank check), he still plays a good hand of poker. By getting Chapman when his stock was low, he's essentially traded a flawed prospect (Jags) and a second-tier one (Davis) for a potential blue-chipper (Torres), another with some potential (McKinney . . . probably = Jags), and Castro, not counting renting out Warren and renting back Chapman. Of course we'll see what else he does between now and the deadline, and I'd really like to see Sanchez get a real shot, as well as Refs and Severino.
What I certainly don't have a handle on is the extent the Yanks are being run to make money, as opposed to being run on a pure baseball basis. Given how much a LP interest in the team probably costs, not just Cash man but even Had and Levine may be under pressure from their partners to run in the black. Their strategy so far has been to run a team they think can pass the red-face test as a contender and will sell overpriced season tickets to businesses and attract TV sponsors. We all to a greater and lesser extent disagree with that model. Now it's running into trouble because we've been in an economic depression really since they built the new Stadium, plus the Mets have cleaned up their act and have some young players worth rooting for. Hoping for the best, but . . . .
What people like Levine (and partners) don't understand is baseball. This team has reached it's end of championship/playoff runs. It is inevitable that we are entering a losing period as these older players regress/move on. By trading older players for more/good prospects, you create 1.hope and interest from fans 2.Narrow the gap between you having a bad, boring team and a team emerging as a threat for championship runs. Both of these scenarios sell tickets, whereas playing old players on their last legs for a couple more playoff appearances gives fans no hope/interest.
http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/yankees/brian-cashman-trades-chapman-yankees-headed-article-1.2726068
“This was an easy call,’’ was the way Cashman put it. “And it was the right call.’’
It’s hard to argue otherwise, yet right to the end, according to a source, team president Randy Levine was in Steinbrenner’s other ear, hoping to convince the owner that Chapman’s star power was too good for business to send packing.
This is why Cashman shouldn't be held 100% accountable for this team.
Part of Hal's problem has been retaining Cashman long past his sell by date.
Cashman isn't the problem, I don't know why or how this still isn't clear. Randy Levine has much more power than anyone knows about. He constantly meddles and thinks he knows more than the baseball ops guys. It's sad.
The GM has responsibility for a roster that is stacked with aging and declining position players and erratic starting pitchers. They haven't developed a position player since Gardner and a starting pitcher since like who can remember that far back.
Otherwise we are in a through the looking glass world in which he just takes a big check while having no power.
That would be an even bigger indictment than one based on incompetence.
What I suspect is going on is: 1) a win now mandate (from Hal and the siblings; 2) that Levine directs; and 3) Cashman executes.
But I don't think it's reasonable to believe that Levine or Hal care whether the route Cashman and his hand-picked manager choose is offense- or pitching and defense-centric, or that they do or do not value on base skills, or that AVG in and of itself has value.
So yes, Cashman is probably boxed in at times, but he has chosen the type of box, and he still gets to fill the box with one of the biggest payrolls in MLB.
Somehow, some fans want to believe that any good move is Cashman's and any bad move is someone else's. That's ridiculous, and is refuted by Cashman's own words with regard to the type of players he likes.
I though as part of Cashman's last negotiated contract, he requested more power over the minors.
We've been hearing that since 2006, so I assume it's largely true, although I guess there are ebbs and flows. But at least from my perspective, if you take the big check, bith the positives and the negatives are imputed to you and you can't cherry pick.
Something perverse has to figure in with Hicks continued playing time despite being laughably bad.
That was partially sarcasm. The larger issue is the negative effect of Cashman.
The reason Hicks may be playing RF lately is to keep Beltran from playing in the outfield and risking injury,
I'm not sure if players like Eovaldi/CC/Pineda are improving their stock for trades or are making Yankee brass think they have a shot of winning it all (lol).
Apart from the fact that there are better options than Hicks, if that's the way they feel them they aren't going all in on winning and they should sell.
RAB
9:30am: The Yankees seek big league ready players in any Andrew Miller trade. They were willing to take true minor league prospects for Chapman, but not Miller. They want players who can help right now. That’s smart. There’s no urgency to trade Miller given his contract situation. Someone’s going to have to blow them away. [Joel Sherman]
If we can get a trea turner / giolito package for miller/gardner, that would be astounding.
I would send Gardner/Miller for Giolito by itself. I doubt Hal signs off on sending another reliever away unless Cashman can convince him the bullpen won't suffer.
I don't understand why Hal wouldn't want to trade Gardner. He is declining, which makes fairly valued contractually at best, so that's a partial way to get under $189m if he wants, and they have multiple replacements.
Oh, and they can re-sign Chapman if they want.
Yes, they could re-sign Chapman, and I expect them to. But it's not about the long-term future, it's about this season. Hal believes, likely wrongly despite the recent win streak, that this team is a playoff contender. As such, if he sees any trade as significantly lessening the team's playoff chances, no way he signs off on it IMO. He only signed off on the Chapman trade because the team still had Miller and Betances and thus, the "damage" was minimal, at-best, in his eyes.
But by trading Chapman they are less of a contender.
So I expect more moves, either to fortify for now, or accept the opportunity to stop being mediocre.
Then, frankly, you've far more faith in the man than I, but I hope you're right.
Just by Cashman asking for Warren back in the AC trade, you know ownership will not do future trades without something coming back to help the current team. They'll be no all out sell off for prospect only deals. Hence we'll get lesser prospects.
I don't really have faith in anybody at the top from the owner through the GM to the manager, but I think they can see an oncoming train and know enough to get out-of-the-way.
From this perspective, the Cubs were very smart because Torres was blocked and that's when you make these types trades; when your entire roster is filled with in their prime talent. That is the opposite of the Yankees situation.
So there was a fit for both teams.
http://nypost.com/2016/07/26/the-deals-that-failed-before-cubs-yankees-trade-reality/
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As for Warren that shouldn't be an issue, because he's not really a good player, so you can always get somebody like that for appeasement purposes.
I really shouldn't be getting this excited about rookie ball numbers but Blake Rutherford is destroying it at Pulaski.
Preoccupied by more important stuff, but Sevy seems to have pitched decently.
What I would do:
1) Get the best deal that you can for Gardner to remove his contract and free up playing time young players
2) Nova has to be moved no matter what
3) Trade Evo and/or Pineda if a team is willing to significantly overpay
4) See if you can get crazy good packages for Miller and Beltran
LINJ: I agree. Problem is convincing Levine/Steinbrenner. Add the Cardinals as a team looking for a big time closer, there's more teams with a need than there are closers. That means a big package. We should look into it.
I think TB would have to take at least 2 of 3 from us to warrant(from Mgmt) a Beltran/Miller trade.
The curious thing is they claim to love Cashman, even though his record is mediocre at best, yet they don't seem to listen to him on the most important decisions.
So do they truly think he's doing a great job, as Levine has said, or do they like him because he does what they say and no longer rocks the boat in any major way?
Cashman has been a part of the organization for decades, knows the territory and makes good money doing what he does. I also want to say he has some sort of vested interest in the team, though I can't remember exactly where I heard that from. All of this likely equates to Cashman being willing to stay with the team despite the drawbacks of him probably not having as much influence as other GMs in the game. That's why it's easy for me to say he should just jump ship when his contract is up, especially since the grass isn't always greener.
I do think Hal values Cashman's opinion to a certain extent, I just think he simultaneously values Levine's way too much when it comes to baseball decisions. Levine really should have no say in that, and it's probably the main reason the team comes off as so dysfunctional all the time.
Again, none of this is to defend Cashman's under-valuing of offense or his propensity to give certain players way too long a leash (Hicks being the obvious example).
As I've said, I used to think he was a humble likable guy who got "it."
In the last five or so years, he has developed a strange proclivity to use idiosyncratic baseball techno jargon and is bizarrely arrogant at times, even dissing fans and Yogi publicly.
Beltran wont bring back a guy like the Mets got from SF as in Zack Wheeler.
If he does get moved it will be for a mid level guy if that.
Think about that though. Wheeler is the most fragile asset, a young pitcher who has done little. Acquiring a young hitter is the safer bet.
Best player regardless of position
My point is about value. Hitters who are lower rated can offer more value because they are more likely to stay on the field.
Heyman said Nats would do Giolito for Miller straight up but Yanks won't.
Definitely interesting, i'd expand the deal to include gardner and push for turner back too.
I always take those kinds of reports with a grain of salt, as it's usually leaked by teams to strengthen their position in some way. When all is said and done, I'm skeptical Miller is moved.
I would do it and agree that Gardner has to be moved, but I never understood why anyone talks to Heyman.
Rutherford was hurt per Josh Norris.
-Mike K. at work
Any more info?
Just that it appeared to be a leg injury. Norris said he would know more after the game.
Per Norris, he's fine. Just "a little light-headed/sick."
-Mike K. at work
Good, thanks.
Nats get Melancon.
Time to move onto TX/Cleveland with Miller and Beltran.
TX-- Gallo/Profar, Mendez and Ortiz
Clev--Zimmer/Frazier, Aiken, Sheffield and Clevinger
Atlanta has interest in McCann if Yanks pickup 5M a year of his deal and take less prospects.
TX could use McCann as well.
I'm in.
I say don't count out Washington for Miller yet. Remember Chicago received that reliever from Seattle before trading for Chapman
btw, I love Frazier and Zimmer from Cleveland, would prefer Frazier...
They can't waste this opportunity. One year plans have really hurt them.
If we did indeed trade Miller to the Indians, as repoted in the below link, we better had gotten a boat load of prospects! Bring me Frazier +!!
http://www.thescore.com/news/1066681
The Yankees will get minor-leaguers outfielder Clint Frazier and pitcher Justus Sheffield in return, sources tell ESPN's Buster Olney.
http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/17184738/cleveland-indians-acquire-star-reliever-andrew-miller-new-york-yankees-prospects
Yes!!! Although Miller will be missed greatly!!
from mlb.com
Frazier's bat speed and raw power are among the best in the Minor Leagues and suggest the ceiling of an All-Star. Though he struggled to harness his aggressive approach and recognize spin early in his career, Frazier has developed into a more complete hitter as he's climbed the Minor League ladder, with strikeout and walk rates that continue to trend in a positive direction.
Frazier has above-average speed and will continue to develop in center field, though he may eventually have to slide over to right field in deference to the some of the Tribe's other center-field prospects in the high Minors.
#5 overall pick in 2013, #1 rated Indian prospect
Sheffield shows the makings of an above-average three-pitch mix. He's hit 96 mph with his fastball but usually sits in the 92-93 mph range with late, arm-side life and some sink. His curveball flashes plus and projects as a swing-and-miss offering at the highest level, and he made strides developing his changeup in 2015. A good athlete with a clean and repeatable delivery, Sheffield floods the zone with all his pitches but needs to improve the quality of his strikes.
At 5-foot-10, Sheffield is somewhat undersized but still creates good downhill plane toward the plate and keeps the ball in the yard. Both his secondary pitches and his command require further refinement, but the southpaw has all the tools necessary to develop into a quality mid-rotation starting pitcher.
#31 pick in 2014, #5 rated Indian prospect.
So we get both Indians/Cubs #1 and #5 prospects.
I think we should get another player or two from Cleveland. I also expect Beltran to go now, likely Rangers?
Jon Heyman 1m
Heller and Fryerson go to yanks in miller deal, too
Good haul keeps getting better!
Can I believe my eyes? Did someone finally put a muzzle on Randy Levine?
Ben Heller
With his strong frame and a lightning-quick arm, Heller generates easy velocity. He operates in the high 90s and can bump triple digits with his heater, throwing the pitch with late arm-side run that makes him difficult to barrel. His slider pairs nicely with his fastball, registering in the low 80s with good tilt and two-plane action, and together they've helped him to pile up strikeouts at every Minor League stop so far.
Though his slider requires some additional refinement, Heller's two-pitch combo, as well as the strides he's made commanding them, could have him working out of the Indians' bullpen sooner rather than later.
A future bridge to Bettances?
Think Heyman initially mis spelled Feyereisen....which is why I could not find him :-)
Joel Sherman 4m
#Yankees also getting 2 RH relief prospects: Ben Heller and J.P. Feyereisen #Indians
http://www.milb.com/player/index.jsp?player_id=656420#/career/R/pitching/2016/ALL
J.P. Feyereisen not among MLB top 30 Indian Prospects, he does have a high K/IP ratio
Ben Heller is Cleveland's #30 rated prospect.
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